I just read your release notes. What is going on? I have been your biggest supporter so hearing something like this just irks me.
Why do you need to know how many times the application starts up?
Who do we have no choice in the matter?
Like why can't we turn it off?
How can you "gain a better understanding of our user community" by paying attention to our application launches?
How can we trust you?
What use it to us?
Are forums, polls not enough?
How are application launches more accurate than say a poll?
Scary. Very scary. I am not going to upgrade till the cookies are taken out. This is so bloody cheesy.
Cookies!!!!???
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Cookies!!!!???
by Ajit AP » Sat Jan 07, 2006 4:29 am
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by mgk » Sat Jan 07, 2006 2:19 pm
Ajit AP
Oh no! We clearly didn’t mean to upset you or cause any loss of faith in us. Know that we hear you loud and clear and are making an immediate mid-course adjustment to address your concerns.
The cookie, which we perhaps mistakenly considered innocuous, is being used to help count the number of users we have. That is its sole purpose. As the release notes state, no other information is gathered or transmitted.
As you point out, we should, and in fact do have a decent aggregate profile of our user community – gained from, as you correctly point out, our Forum and the one poll we ran so far. And of course we know how many times the application has been downloaded etc. But we had no way of knowing just how many people use Celtx on a regular basis so we decided to add the cookie to help us determine that figure rather then trying to estimate the number from inferential data. As I’m sure you can appreciate, this is the sort of data that is useful and helpful for a start-up to have about itself.
Our intention was to provide a cookie management feature in the next release (we wanted to do it for 95 but it was left off the table in the desire to get the release out the door this week). In hindsight – a wrongheaded strategy. So, we are doing two things.
First, I’ve asked the developers to see whether we can provide you with a way to turn cookies off immediately. They should get back to me on this very soon and I’ll post another message here when they do. Second, we’ll do a new build first thing this week that will include a cookie management feature and re-release 095.
Will this help address your concerns?
Mark
Oh no! We clearly didn’t mean to upset you or cause any loss of faith in us. Know that we hear you loud and clear and are making an immediate mid-course adjustment to address your concerns.
The cookie, which we perhaps mistakenly considered innocuous, is being used to help count the number of users we have. That is its sole purpose. As the release notes state, no other information is gathered or transmitted.
As you point out, we should, and in fact do have a decent aggregate profile of our user community – gained from, as you correctly point out, our Forum and the one poll we ran so far. And of course we know how many times the application has been downloaded etc. But we had no way of knowing just how many people use Celtx on a regular basis so we decided to add the cookie to help us determine that figure rather then trying to estimate the number from inferential data. As I’m sure you can appreciate, this is the sort of data that is useful and helpful for a start-up to have about itself.
Our intention was to provide a cookie management feature in the next release (we wanted to do it for 95 but it was left off the table in the desire to get the release out the door this week). In hindsight – a wrongheaded strategy. So, we are doing two things.
First, I’ve asked the developers to see whether we can provide you with a way to turn cookies off immediately. They should get back to me on this very soon and I’ll post another message here when they do. Second, we’ll do a new build first thing this week that will include a cookie management feature and re-release 095.
Will this help address your concerns?
Mark
- mgk
Very Kind of you
by Ajit AP » Sat Jan 07, 2006 3:15 pm
Hi Mark,
Thank you for the prompt and caring answer. I sincerely appreciate both what you have said and what you plan to do.
However, I do have a couple of additional points that I would like to make. Your product requires a lot of trust. Unlike other screenwriting products Celtx emphasizes on the share features with the user using the product's server as the place of exchange. Writers are wired paranoid, afraid that anyone and everyone is trying to steal their ideas. When you do include a cookie management system in place, imagine a newbie (and adding it in release notes or manual, do not necessarily reach every user) using your software and finding later that his writing tool has provided information on his usuage. I have no intention of lecturing you because you know best, but this would freak me. It would be hard for anyone to trust Celtx fully after that.
I understand you need to know how many users use your products. I really do. However, wouldn't downloads for the various releases provide such information.
Again, I appreciate your efforts. I thank the Celtx team for making an excellent product and keeping it open-sourced. I await the re-releases because I cannot wait to get my hands on the scratch pad feature.
Best,
Ajit
Thank you for the prompt and caring answer. I sincerely appreciate both what you have said and what you plan to do.
However, I do have a couple of additional points that I would like to make. Your product requires a lot of trust. Unlike other screenwriting products Celtx emphasizes on the share features with the user using the product's server as the place of exchange. Writers are wired paranoid, afraid that anyone and everyone is trying to steal their ideas. When you do include a cookie management system in place, imagine a newbie (and adding it in release notes or manual, do not necessarily reach every user) using your software and finding later that his writing tool has provided information on his usuage. I have no intention of lecturing you because you know best, but this would freak me. It would be hard for anyone to trust Celtx fully after that.
I understand you need to know how many users use your products. I really do. However, wouldn't downloads for the various releases provide such information.
Again, I appreciate your efforts. I thank the Celtx team for making an excellent product and keeping it open-sourced. I await the re-releases because I cannot wait to get my hands on the scratch pad feature.
Best,
Ajit
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by artofwot » Sat Jan 07, 2006 4:06 pm
I understand your point, Ajit AP, but keep in mind that just because you download a program doesn't mean that you use it.
For instance, I have a number of programs sitting on my harddrive that I download to test out, I used them once or twice, and I haven't touched them since.
For instance, I have a number of programs sitting on my harddrive that I download to test out, I used them once or twice, and I haven't touched them since.
http://blogs.fanfilmengine.com
A blog devoted to my upcoming movie, as well as my filmmaking tutorial site
A blog devoted to my upcoming movie, as well as my filmmaking tutorial site
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Disabling Cookies for the current release of 095
by greg » Sat Jan 07, 2006 5:10 pm
Below are instructions for disabling cookies in the current (095) release of celtx. We'll provide an easier way to do this in an upcoming release.
The instructions are the same as those for disabling cookies in Firefox 1.07:
http://www.mozilla.org/support/firefox/options#privacy
Instructions:
1. From the celtx splash page select "Celtx Forums". This will launch a new browser window.
2. Select Tools -> Options from menu of the new browser window. This will open the Options dialog.
3. Select "Privacy" option from the left-hand dialog menu.
4. Expand the "Cookies" option by selecting "+" sign.
5. Select the "Clear" button to remove any existing cookies.
Then choose either:
Option #6
A. De-select "Allow sites to set cookies"
B. Click "OK".
This will permanently disable ALL cookie usage.
Option #7
A. Click the "Exceptions" button.
B. Enter the web address "celtx.com" and select "Block".
C. Enter the web address "publish.celtx.com" and select "Block".
D. Enter the web address "forums.celtx.com" and select "Block".
E. Click "OK".
This will specifically disable any celtx originated cookie usage.
Greg
The instructions are the same as those for disabling cookies in Firefox 1.07:
http://www.mozilla.org/support/firefox/options#privacy
Instructions:
1. From the celtx splash page select "Celtx Forums". This will launch a new browser window.
2. Select Tools -> Options from menu of the new browser window. This will open the Options dialog.
3. Select "Privacy" option from the left-hand dialog menu.
4. Expand the "Cookies" option by selecting "+" sign.
5. Select the "Clear" button to remove any existing cookies.
Then choose either:
Option #6
A. De-select "Allow sites to set cookies"
B. Click "OK".
This will permanently disable ALL cookie usage.
Option #7
A. Click the "Exceptions" button.
B. Enter the web address "celtx.com" and select "Block".
C. Enter the web address "publish.celtx.com" and select "Block".
D. Enter the web address "forums.celtx.com" and select "Block".
E. Click "OK".
This will specifically disable any celtx originated cookie usage.
Greg
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having applications
by Ajit AP » Sat Jan 07, 2006 5:15 pm
artofwot,
We can also have applications open and not being used. Okay jokes aside, the discussion is not whether downloads = usuage but rather what info usuage stats will provide that is different from downloads.
Downloads tells you how many users are interested in the product. If the amount increases, then surely your product is being used. Celtx can also figure out whether the user returns with the IP address (requesting download?). Returning interest means that they are likely to use it or already using it. Based on that Celtx can assume "we are on the right track."
Usuage equals what? The only reason I can think of is to find out if people are checking out the product, are interested but not using it. What if people are not using it? How can you base any future development on that info? Does development become slower or faster? This information really does not help. People could be dissatisfied, satisfied but don't have a project to work on currently. Around this time of year (New Year), you will have a lot people writing, thus using Celtx, is that data helpful? Opening applications relative to other products is helpful but that would be illegal.
Checking out if it is being used more than the competitors. In this case you need to have the competitors records. There is no way of knowing. How can you tell if they are writing a screenplay but are not using your product. You cannot. Unless there is a conspiracy that I am unawares of.
Everyone I speak to about Celtx is excited, however, some are waiting for a certain maturation before they use it. It is more important to maintain that interest instead of finding out whether you have matured enough to where people are using it. The developers need to focus on what they have to do–make the product better. People have and will continue to come. And they will use all the services.
I really am curious to know the reasons. But the crux of the issue is trust and whether the writer would feel comfortable giving up such info. I think a small focused group will provide more info on how best to serve the clients rather than little blips that tell you the application is opened.
Best,
Ajit
We can also have applications open and not being used. Okay jokes aside, the discussion is not whether downloads = usuage but rather what info usuage stats will provide that is different from downloads.
Downloads tells you how many users are interested in the product. If the amount increases, then surely your product is being used. Celtx can also figure out whether the user returns with the IP address (requesting download?). Returning interest means that they are likely to use it or already using it. Based on that Celtx can assume "we are on the right track."
Usuage equals what? The only reason I can think of is to find out if people are checking out the product, are interested but not using it. What if people are not using it? How can you base any future development on that info? Does development become slower or faster? This information really does not help. People could be dissatisfied, satisfied but don't have a project to work on currently. Around this time of year (New Year), you will have a lot people writing, thus using Celtx, is that data helpful? Opening applications relative to other products is helpful but that would be illegal.
Checking out if it is being used more than the competitors. In this case you need to have the competitors records. There is no way of knowing. How can you tell if they are writing a screenplay but are not using your product. You cannot. Unless there is a conspiracy that I am unawares of.
Everyone I speak to about Celtx is excited, however, some are waiting for a certain maturation before they use it. It is more important to maintain that interest instead of finding out whether you have matured enough to where people are using it. The developers need to focus on what they have to do–make the product better. People have and will continue to come. And they will use all the services.
I really am curious to know the reasons. But the crux of the issue is trust and whether the writer would feel comfortable giving up such info. I think a small focused group will provide more info on how best to serve the clients rather than little blips that tell you the application is opened.
Best,
Ajit
- Ajit AP
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by mgk » Sat Jan 07, 2006 6:38 pm
Hi Ajit
Given Greg’s directions on how to remove the cookie, are you OK now with downloading 95? I hope so. It’s a wicked release.
In the meantime, we’ll rethink this issue and see if there is a better way to gather the information we were seeking – which was just a bare bones count of Celtx heads (or seats as they say in the biz). Downloads are a good proxy (I understand that the industry average is one user for every two downloads) but nonetheless an imperfect measure.
I agree completely that “a small focused group will provide more info on how best to serve” our users. And to that end, we ever grateful for all the feedback you and our other dedicated users have provided to us over the last while.
As we’ve indicated, the cookie had one purpose and one purpose only – to help us accurately count the number of users as opposed to having to estimate it from other data. Clearly, we’ll abandon the cookies altogether if users find it problematic.
To that end, I appreciate your comments regarding the Trust factor. We’re ever conscious of the time and effort people put in to their work product, and provide all the mechanisms we can to help protect your data (one of the reasons why we offer the ability to do a remote back-up of your project on a professionally managed server). I guess some of our own naivety is showing, expecting people to just trust us. It comes from living in a small place where you trust those you know, because you either know them, or know someone who knows them (what in effect most of the social networking sites are attempting to replicate for those living in a less connected village).
In any event, a lesson learned here for us for sure. Generally, we get this stuff on the first telling.
Hope this helps. Please let me know if there is anything further we can do.
Mark
Given Greg’s directions on how to remove the cookie, are you OK now with downloading 95? I hope so. It’s a wicked release.
In the meantime, we’ll rethink this issue and see if there is a better way to gather the information we were seeking – which was just a bare bones count of Celtx heads (or seats as they say in the biz). Downloads are a good proxy (I understand that the industry average is one user for every two downloads) but nonetheless an imperfect measure.
I agree completely that “a small focused group will provide more info on how best to serve” our users. And to that end, we ever grateful for all the feedback you and our other dedicated users have provided to us over the last while.
As we’ve indicated, the cookie had one purpose and one purpose only – to help us accurately count the number of users as opposed to having to estimate it from other data. Clearly, we’ll abandon the cookies altogether if users find it problematic.
To that end, I appreciate your comments regarding the Trust factor. We’re ever conscious of the time and effort people put in to their work product, and provide all the mechanisms we can to help protect your data (one of the reasons why we offer the ability to do a remote back-up of your project on a professionally managed server). I guess some of our own naivety is showing, expecting people to just trust us. It comes from living in a small place where you trust those you know, because you either know them, or know someone who knows them (what in effect most of the social networking sites are attempting to replicate for those living in a less connected village).
In any event, a lesson learned here for us for sure. Generally, we get this stuff on the first telling.
Hope this helps. Please let me know if there is anything further we can do.
Mark
- mgk
by nsfilms » Sat Jan 07, 2006 8:15 pm
Dude, 95% of all the software out there has these features.
If you install Acrobat, it is tracked.
If you have windows, it is tracked.
If you have OSX, it is tracked.
Virtually every bit of software today uses a method of tracking to assure that the copy is legal.
It's the price of using software that YOU didn't write.
BTW, Movie Magic and Final Draft DO track you. It constantly checks for connections to check the validity of the software. How do you think many of these programs know that you need to upgrade? For example, just try to use a serial number or unlock code in one of those programs and see what happens. You have to obtain a cracked version. But I don't recommend that because 10 to 1 says that the hacked version has something wrong with it. Maybe the hacker put in a different type of tracker? One that isn't a user friendly one.
Not all software does it. But you can bet your ass that if you've paid more than $100 for the software that there is something that tracks the usage.
I support Celtx and if you want to track the usage more power to you. I think it's VITAL to the improvement of the program. As long as you disclose the information that is collected...More power to you.
Keep up the GREAT work and remember...The customer is NOT always right.
If you install Acrobat, it is tracked.
If you have windows, it is tracked.
If you have OSX, it is tracked.
Virtually every bit of software today uses a method of tracking to assure that the copy is legal.
It's the price of using software that YOU didn't write.
BTW, Movie Magic and Final Draft DO track you. It constantly checks for connections to check the validity of the software. How do you think many of these programs know that you need to upgrade? For example, just try to use a serial number or unlock code in one of those programs and see what happens. You have to obtain a cracked version. But I don't recommend that because 10 to 1 says that the hacked version has something wrong with it. Maybe the hacker put in a different type of tracker? One that isn't a user friendly one.
Not all software does it. But you can bet your ass that if you've paid more than $100 for the software that there is something that tracks the usage.
I support Celtx and if you want to track the usage more power to you. I think it's VITAL to the improvement of the program. As long as you disclose the information that is collected...More power to you.
Keep up the GREAT work and remember...The customer is NOT always right.
-
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by Huh? » Sat Jan 07, 2006 8:44 pm
nsfilms,
You must be smoking. Maybe 95% is the case in the Windows world (and I seriously doubt that). But it certainly is not the norm with OS X.
Huh? Typing in your serial number or whatever does not mean the software keeps a track of you. It only validates if you have paid for it or have a legal copy. So if you don't have internet, you cannot install software?
So you propose that any software that I don't write, I should give up my rights.
Your logic being, if those monkeys do it, then it should be fine. Right.
I don't know how Windows works. But in OS X, it does not tell you that you need updates till you go to the software updater. There are shareware applications that ping their sites to tell you that you might need an update. But that is also an option, as simple as going to preferences and choosing "do not check for updates."
By the way, the splash page for Celtx checks the site for any changes (and frankly the splash page is annoying). But to collect information on users by using cookies is not cool. To me, till now, I don't see how that information could be of any use. See above for reasoning.
Again, I think you are mistaken how many rights you do have.
How so? Explain.
You look mighty pretty sitting on the other side of the fence.
You must be smoking. Maybe 95% is the case in the Windows world (and I seriously doubt that). But it certainly is not the norm with OS X.
Virtually every bit of software today uses a method of tracking to assure that the copy is legal.
Huh? Typing in your serial number or whatever does not mean the software keeps a track of you. It only validates if you have paid for it or have a legal copy. So if you don't have internet, you cannot install software?
It's the price of using software that YOU didn't write.
So you propose that any software that I don't write, I should give up my rights.
BTW, Movie Magic and Final Draft DO track you.
Your logic being, if those monkeys do it, then it should be fine. Right.
How do you think many of these programs know that you need to upgrade?
I don't know how Windows works. But in OS X, it does not tell you that you need updates till you go to the software updater. There are shareware applications that ping their sites to tell you that you might need an update. But that is also an option, as simple as going to preferences and choosing "do not check for updates."
By the way, the splash page for Celtx checks the site for any changes (and frankly the splash page is annoying). But to collect information on users by using cookies is not cool. To me, till now, I don't see how that information could be of any use. See above for reasoning.
Not all software does it. But you can bet your ass that if you've paid more than $100 for the software that there is something that tracks the usage.
Again, I think you are mistaken how many rights you do have.
I think it's VITAL to the improvement of the program.
How so? Explain.
The customer is NOT always right
You look mighty pretty sitting on the other side of the fence.
- Huh?
by nsfilms » Sat Jan 07, 2006 9:25 pm
So if you don't have internet, you cannot install software?
There are people that still don't have internet? How do they survive?
Apparently, you didn't read the line that basically says there are exceptions. This was simply to make a point. Not meant to be literal. I'll rephrase. "Many software programs (more than you might think) track the usage of their software". Oh, BTW "they" know where you've been on the Internet too... (Run and hide).
So you propose that any software that I don't write, I should give up my rights.
Your rights? What the heck rights are you giving up? Did you write the software? If not, then there are no rights to give up. You're using someone elses software. They own the rights. You're "licensing" the software. You don't own it.
If you're talking about some other rights then you need to read the EULA because they almost all state what rights the creator/distributor retain. When you click that little, "I Agree" button you ... well...agree.
By the way, the splash page for Celtx checks the site for any changes (and frankly the splash page is annoying)
Well, to each his own. I (an I think I'm not alone in this) think it is a great integration between user/server. It's also a great way to keep up to date on the software.
To me, till now, I don't see how that information could be of any use.
Obviously, you're not a developer of any sort. This information is vital in the development of the software. Do you think if someone is NOT using certain features of the software that it's logical to invest time and money into further development of those features? It also helps establish priorities and more.
You look mighty pretty sitting on the other side of the fence.
Ok, I have to admit, I have no idea what you meant by this comment.
-
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by Ajit AP » Sat Jan 07, 2006 11:58 pm
BTW "they" know where you've been on the Internet too... (Run and hide).
Are you for real? Cookies are left on your computer. Hopefully, your computer is up to speed so that someone is not using that information but your system.
Your rights? What the heck rights are you giving up?
Privacy. When you buy a product, you own the product. They don't own you.
If you're talking about some other rights then you need to read the EULA because they almost all state what rights the creator/distributor retain. When you click that little, "I Agree" button you ... well...agree.
That is why I did not download the software. Did you read the rest of this discussion?
Obviously, you're not a developer of any sort. This information is vital in the development of the software. Do you think if someone is NOT using certain features of the software that it's logical to invest time and money into further development of those features?
Obviously, I am not. And by now we know you are not either. Mark and the Celtx release notes state that the cookies are there to check and see how often the program is launched. Not to figure out what features are being used.
It also helps establish priorities and more.
Wow, I guess they cannot do this without the cookies. I wonder how they got this far!!
I have no idea what you meant by this comment.
Stop kissing ass and do some critical thinking instead of just saying "that is the way it is and so that is the way it should be."
- Ajit AP
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by Shky » Sun Jan 08, 2006 12:43 am
I agree with most of what you're saying, except this:
It's not your system that uses the cookie, it's the website you're visiting. That's exactly why one would be wary of Celtx's cookie (and why I don't understand why you would say that); it's not just sitting on your computer, that information is being sent to Celtx HQ. Just like any cookie you get from a website is there so that they can gather information about you (whether for nefarious purposes or not).
EDIT: Unless of course you're specifically refering to software you install. Yes, you should have a firewall set up so that you know when it's communicating (and so that you can stop it). If that's what you meant, disregard. My post here refers to cookies in general.
Are you for real? Cookies are left on your computer. Hopefully, your computer is up to speed so that someone is not using that information but your system.
It's not your system that uses the cookie, it's the website you're visiting. That's exactly why one would be wary of Celtx's cookie (and why I don't understand why you would say that); it's not just sitting on your computer, that information is being sent to Celtx HQ. Just like any cookie you get from a website is there so that they can gather information about you (whether for nefarious purposes or not).
EDIT: Unless of course you're specifically refering to software you install. Yes, you should have a firewall set up so that you know when it's communicating (and so that you can stop it). If that's what you meant, disregard. My post here refers to cookies in general.
<a href="http://ingenioustries.com">Ingenioustries</a>
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